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On Disagreements: Punch 'em

We know they’re wrong. Yet how do we avoid that cliche idiom, “I respectfully disagree.” The quotes speak for themselves.

  1. ... we need a meta-decision system for resolution of disagreement. [info]i_am_lane 
  2. The meanings are well defined, the rules are well defined, the correct result is well defined. [info]allmhuran 
  3. I don’t think that we can in practice claim with absolute confidence that there is a single point of convergence for all our philosophizing. There may always be, in principle, multiple attractor states. [info]paulhope 
  4. ... we’d have some agreed-upon and justified set of second-order rules and criteria for rational inquiry in general; ... We might have to look elsewhere, change our normative considerations about such epistemic inquiries, or stop holding our breath for an absolute epistemological revelation concerning such first principles. [info]awwh_snap 
  5. I think a fight to the death is the only reasonable choice. [info]apperception 
  6. “There’s one right answer, and we’d all reach it if we’d just correctly apply the rules of rationality to the problem at hand.” This looks eerily like ‘If you didn’t get the correct answer, you used the incorrect method’. [info]gerbilsage 
  7. Only when properly aristocratic agents assert themselves and form a strong, well-governed state can the conditions required for enlightened discourse exist, to the profit of all peace-loving and free-thinking individuals who can construct a complete sentence. [info]mendaciloquent 
  8. It’s not that we have to argue over how to achieve convergence: it’s that we first have to justify why the hell we would ever want such a thing to happen in the first place. [info]epictetus_rex 


Taken from Disagreement on philosophy  .

Comments

( 62 comments — Leave a comment )
ragnarok20
Jun. 23rd, 2007 05:20 am (UTC)
Haha, Mendy talking about free-thinking.

My butt.
vap0rtranz
Jun. 25th, 2007 12:35 am (UTC)
I imagine he'd say, "You can think freely, but you're wrong (about that thought)." :)
force_of_will
Jun. 23rd, 2007 06:48 pm (UTC)
I'm gettin ready to say something on all of this, I think. Freedom basically is a negative space in the dialectic and contrary to its popular usage, real freedom leads to anarchy, incoherence, and anguish.

Now back to Wal-Mart and the bikes. Feh.

vap0rtranz
Jun. 23rd, 2007 07:43 pm (UTC)
*eyebrow raised*

Oh? I am all ears ... or all eyes in this case. Hurry! You're better at this; I fumble with words.
force_of_will
Jun. 23rd, 2007 11:42 pm (UTC)
I'm not a friend of that persons friend locked journal...

I'm hoping to get the long post of this churned out before we go on vacation next Friday. I work through Tuesday, and as I said the job makes me tired. We'll see...

It feels like a rather profound breakthrough, but I don't take much stock that I could ever be that novel with anything that has much meaning. But that's part of the game...
(no subject) - vap0rtranz - Jun. 25th, 2007 12:43 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - force_of_will - Jun. 25th, 2007 02:19 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - vap0rtranz - Jun. 25th, 2007 02:37 am (UTC) - Expand
hfx_ben
Jun. 23rd, 2007 08:03 pm (UTC)
Sounds entropic
But dynamically balanced systems digest entropy, so I've been told.

Chaos is information rich ... it isn't random. Autopoeisis and all that. According to what you've written here life would have self-extinguished long ago.

Or perhaps you're talking about the subjective experience of rampant egoism i.e. the culture of narcissism, entitlement and sovereignty?
force_of_will
Jun. 23rd, 2007 11:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Sounds entropic
Well, here are a few quick points.

Analogy. We have a ship chained to a dock. We say the ship is free from the dock when the chain is no longer present. As such freedom isn't cognizable. We are aware of it as a negative relation, which makes it difficult to garner. We are most free of a government when we are not thinking of it at all.

When Nietzsche spoke that, "God is dead" it was with anguish towards moral freedom. Being free of God returns anguish. So this is a facet of freedom.

Philosophy cannot help but be like its cousins and still tied to the prophetic. It wants to predict. It still is connected to the ethics of what ought to be. It dreams of utopias. But subjective freedom throws a wrench into realizing any dreamed utopia despite what tools philosophy might use. All hell breaks loose when we are free to disagree for any utopia takes some coherence, some harmony as its key. The result is as from Marx to Stalin.

Power eddys in life such that it is protected to some degree from self-extinguishment, i.e. Stalin and his ilk appear. Only some are extinguished before their time...

Chomsky makes the case that the mind use of language is rationally emergent. It makes sense of the chaos is.

The question always returns. What can we predict? And what can we make happen?
Re: Sounds entropic - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 01:51 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - force_of_will - Jun. 24th, 2007 03:12 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 04:24 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - force_of_will - Jun. 24th, 2007 01:03 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 03:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - force_of_will - Jun. 25th, 2007 01:33 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - hfx_ben - Jun. 25th, 2007 02:08 am (UTC) - Expand
Adjourned - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 08:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
Embarassment of riches - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 10:22 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Embarassment of riches - moosehead_beer - Jun. 25th, 2007 06:50 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Embarassment of riches - hfx_ben - Jun. 25th, 2007 03:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Embarassment of riches - moosehead_beer - Jun. 25th, 2007 10:26 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Embarassment of riches - hfx_ben - Jun. 25th, 2007 10:48 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Embarassment of riches - vap0rtranz - Jun. 26th, 2007 01:56 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Embarassment of riches - hfx_ben - Jun. 26th, 2007 06:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - vap0rtranz - Jun. 25th, 2007 01:00 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - hfx_ben - Jun. 25th, 2007 03:45 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - moosehead_beer - Jun. 24th, 2007 09:16 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 03:01 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - moosehead_beer - Jun. 24th, 2007 07:38 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 08:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - moosehead_beer - Jun. 24th, 2007 08:27 pm (UTC) - Expand
You moved faster than I had anticipated. - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 08:36 pm (UTC) - Expand
Oh-wooops ... I imputed motive - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 08:38 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - vap0rtranz - Jun. 25th, 2007 01:17 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - moosehead_beer - Jun. 25th, 2007 06:38 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - vap0rtranz - Jun. 25th, 2007 04:47 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: Sounds entropic - vap0rtranz - Jun. 25th, 2007 01:09 am (UTC) - Expand
If you can restrain your blood-lust ... - hfx_ben - Jun. 24th, 2007 08:29 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: If you can restrain your blood-lust ... - hfx_ben - Jun. 25th, 2007 03:25 pm (UTC) - Expand
Re: If you can restrain your blood-lust ... - hfx_ben - Jun. 26th, 2007 06:24 pm (UTC) - Expand
hfx_ben
Jun. 23rd, 2007 08:00 pm (UTC)
Now anybody who's positioned to start a web business?
EXTJS, PHP, MySQL, and a break-through in techne ... everything's positioned. Everything except a coupla sharp/agile yungins to carry the ball.

*not j/k*
vap0rtranz
Jun. 23rd, 2007 09:54 pm (UTC)
Re: Now anybody who's positioned to start a web business?
LAMP? Sure. But Perl is betta; so is Postgresql.
hfx_ben
Jun. 23rd, 2007 10:53 pm (UTC)
Re: Now anybody who's positioned to start a web business?
LAMP's the standard uhhhh anvil. But I'm not quibbling about tools.

"Perl is betta" huh huh ... that would mark the spot where I drop out of the exchange.
;-P

http://many2many.wordpress.com is one blog I launched this spring ... http://bentrem.sycks.net is messy as sin but it tells the tale.

Lotsa folk running around comparing tools ...
... point is to establish and safe-guard civil society.
downcasteyes07
Jun. 24th, 2007 02:02 am (UTC)
This post is exactly what I needed to get through my night. Aha, life for me has turned into philosophizing grass. Sad. So sad.
vap0rtranz
Jun. 25th, 2007 01:19 am (UTC)
Heh. I meant to applaud something you quoted from Plato ...

*searches your journal*

... ah yes, your favorite quote is from the allegory of the Cave, no?
(no subject) - downcasteyes07 - Jun. 25th, 2007 01:15 pm (UTC) - Expand
moosehead_beer
Jun. 24th, 2007 09:15 am (UTC)
Simple but very important problem.
Show that the gravitational self-energy (energy of assembly piecewise from infinity) of a uniform sphere of mass M and radius R is

U = - {3 \over 5} {GM^2 \over R}
hfx_ben
Jun. 24th, 2007 03:04 pm (UTC)
Non sequitor
And this relates to the post or to the comments /how/?

A bit of entailment will help us mere mortals see your exhalted expression for just what it is.
hfx_ben
Jun. 24th, 2007 11:24 pm (UTC)
Debate, discussion, discourse
I just came across this ... it seems salient to your point:
"The final theme is how to bring into a single analysis the fact that the world has continuing structures and that it is constantly changing. This is of course a second continuing epistemological question, and one to which I have given much attention from the beginning. It is a hard one about which to convince others that there is some kind of solution. Most of us tend to make our statements either in the form of truths that hold more or less forever or in the form of descriptions of unique situations. But no situation can be described as unique, since the words with which we describe it are categories which presume features common to some larger group, hence to some continuing structure that ap pears to be stable. And at the same time no truths hold forever because the world is of course inevitably and eternally changing. We have indeed to work with temporarily useful structures/categories that bear within them the processes by which they get transformed into other structures/categories."
"The Development of an Intellectual Position"; Immanuel Wallerstein
( 62 comments — Leave a comment )